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<  PRODIGY MUSIC / GENERAL  ~  why it took so long for IMD to leak

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:18 pm
User avatarCorporalCorporalPosts: 358Location: EnglandJoined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:10 pm
i think its crazy how you are all planning on hacking into these discs, the albums out in a few days, just wat 8-)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:20 pm
User avatarCaptainCaptainPosts: 664Location: CroatiaJoined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:18 am
ChemicaL wrote:
In other words - we need a Pole who knows his shit. .


nah... we need some patience and a pint of cold brew


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:20 pm
SergeantSergeantPosts: 478Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:38 am
crazyboy wrote:
Ekko wrote:
What Chaosu is saying is that such watermarking would not remain intact, iow that the boys at Activated Content are lying their asses off.


And he remains right.

If you have an already coded mp3-file (leaving not much space for unhearable information), played over distance from a speaker, (which inevitably _already_ changes a lot of information written into the table of bits) and you also got a microphone recording this now altered information, plus the resonance, the reverb and/or damping of the room, you just can not expect to find a watermarking, which is designed to be unlistenable in a format which is designed to leave ONLY the for the normal human ear important pieces of the signal as it was put into the material before this very chain.

The part I don't understand is, why you keep so much faith in the words of these Activated Content-peeps. You must know that they buy their food and hookers by their job - which IS selling watermarking technology to stupid people.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:13 pm
User avatarMajorMajorPosts: 735Location: PolandJoined: Wed May 23, 2007 12:08 pm
crazyboy wrote:
Ekko wrote:
Nope man, he's right. What do you think how these bits will transport, telepathy???

If the arses of Universal and wtf tell you this system is unfailable, why do you think they do?

You have to understand when somebody is manipulating you, dude.

It might even be enoug to alter small things in the bit structure of the song, like speeding it up 0.1%, so you change the entire table of bits but keep the song intact enough to not loose listening pleasure.

Let me dudes tell you one very important thing: The war of copiers against distributers was over since the invention of mp3, the arrival of fast web-connection and the first version of napster and it will never be changed, only (-if, at all-) mader harder for copiers, spreaders aso.
As long as you can hear a signal, you will always have some sort of possibility to hijack it, wheter it's coded or whatnot, the rest is just trying to disguise / loose / disable the 'spyware' in it.

So, the album WILL leak, if it's gonna be done by a smart person or an idiot than can be traced - we'll see.


I'm not saying the system can't fail, or that the album won't leak. I'm saying that if you play the promo on your stereo and record it from the speakers, the watermark will still be intact and whatever record company can still identify what promo has been leaked. What Chaosu is saying is that such watermarking would not remain intact, iow that the boys at Activated Content are lying their asses off.

Though, I guess the only way to really find out is to actually do it. But I'd rather wait a couple of more weeks than to have a leak that was recorded through.


I never smoked anything so don't accuse me next time, please.

I stopped reading attached document at page two where it says
Quote:
It refers to the idea that intentional or unintentional removal of the watermark should only be possible accepting a degradation of the audio singal quality.

Dressed in nice words it means that degrading audio quality will remove the watermark.

Pick a mp3.
Covert it to wav.
Open it with Audacity to see the waveform.
Open it with Winamp.
Play it in Winamp and record it via Audacity.
Realize that waveforms are different (and we haven't used speakers->microphones yet which adds many more deforming possibilities).



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:19 pm
GeneralGeneralPosts: 1769Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:09 am
Instead of degrading quality too much, why not add fake watermarks?



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:25 pm
User avatarGeneralGeneralPosts: 2006Location: NorwayJoined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:50 pm
any true fan would wait.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:25 pm
User avatarMajorMajorPosts: 735Location: PolandJoined: Wed May 23, 2007 12:08 pm
s0ren wrote:
Instead of degrading quality too much, why not add fake watermarks?


Probably too hard to detect where they should be added to overwrite existing ones.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:27 pm
GeneralGeneralPosts: 1769Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:09 am
Chaosu wrote:
s0ren wrote:
Instead of degrading quality too much, why not add fake watermarks?


Probably too hard to detect where they should be added to overwrite existing ones.

true. But timestretching and multiple fake watermarks should atleast make it "confused"


.... if we knew the CV watermarking method =/



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:31 pm
User avatarModeratorModeratorPosts: 2212Location: Oslo, NorwayJoined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:48 pm
To Chaosu and Ekko,

fair enough

I withdraw my case :wink:

...though, Chaosu you should start smoking...it will calm you down (thinking of your agressive profile pic)

:twisted:



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:41 pm
User avatarModeratorModeratorPosts: 2212Location: Oslo, NorwayJoined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:48 pm
MoozeBlaster wrote:
any true fan would wait.


any true fan pre-ordered the album months ago (iow has already paid for the album), has already seen band in a 2009 show or has tickets to one, and is now so sick of waiting that they would download a leak right away.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:31 pm
User avatarPrivatePrivatePosts: 289Location: GermanyJoined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:04 pm
crazyboy wrote:
MoozeBlaster wrote:
any true fan would wait.


any true fan pre-ordered the album months ago (iow has already paid for the album), has already seen band in a 2009 show or has tickets to one, and is now so sick of waiting that they would download a leak right away.


No.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:41 pm
GeneralGeneralPosts: 1769Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:09 am
Some would wait some wont.
Some will buy the album and some wont.
But those who download it now if it was available are those who would download it anyway.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:46 pm
User avatarProdigious ArabPosts: 4204Location: The Dark SideJoined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:22 pm
s0ren wrote:
Some would wait some wont.
Some will buy the album and some wont.
But those who download it now if it was available are those who would download it anyway.


+1

I was told that this http://btjunkie.org/torrent/SoundTaxi-p ... bf369c086d
(Sound Taxi)

Its able of removing the watermarks i think, however im not into these things so ill leave it to the pro's


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:51 pm
User avatarGeneralGeneralPosts: 1351Location: Manchester, EnglandJoined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:32 am
Bullshit the lot of it, you cant watermark audio in the way they are saying.

This is just PR bollocks from Universal to try and scare people, you dont need to watermark a track to see people are sharing them via p2p you can just track their IP address but the fact is their evidence wouldnt stand up in court otherwise thousands wouldnt be procecuted.

In regards to IMD leaking, it will do as every album does these days but as long as the album gets the respect it deserves and fires up the charts then cool, Im sure alot of people will still pay for an actual cd as opposed to downloading it



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:57 pm
User avatarLieutenantLieutenantPosts: 578Location: RomaniaJoined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:08 am
Wrong. You CAN do it, and it's actually a pretty interesting process. The watermark is, on theory, very easy to implement. All it does is modify some frequencies that are "invisible" to the human ear, so the actual sound of the track doesn't change at all. Anyone can do this using Sound Forge, for example, if he knows the right patterns used to add the details. Decoding the freq pattern should also be easy, just think of it as a morse code.
It's a matter of time before this "protection" stuff is removed, because, on the other end, the record companies DO need some piece of software to decode the encoded watermarks. Once that program is online, say goodbye to this "piracy nightmare".



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